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A quick example of negative reinforcement (pressure/release or escape) training in action with a couple of my sheepdog pups.
They’re puffing and panting because they’ve just been for a big run while I was doing some fencing, and then got to chase a few sheep around.
We give a command, give the pup a chance to respond, if it doesn’t we introduce an uncomfortable pressure (an aversive – oh no, how terrible!) while repeating the command, until the pup responds. Then we immediately release the pressure and praise the pup “good boy”. (I go into much more detail on what I refer to as the ICEPIPR process in my sheepdog training videos https://workingsheepdogtraining.com/….)
The so-called “positive” crowd say we should NEVER use negative reinforcement because it is EVIL and ABUSIVE (and everyone who uses it is no doubt a wife and child beater and probably also a serial killer…!).
According to Susan Garrett “…there is ALWAYS fallout with ANY form of punishment–even something as benign as a time-out.” Rubbish. Complete and utter rubbish. Comments like that simply show the enormous lack of knowledge and lack of experience that is common to all these positive ideologues. In fact, during their earlier run they collided with each other and went flying numerous times, and tripped on rocks and went head over heels, all FAR MORE aversive than anything in this training.
And yet, inexplicably(!), no terrible, life altering trauma… they mustn’t have read Susan Garrett’s – and all the other so-called “positive” ideologue’s – claims.
If you watch until the end of the 5 minutes (and I’ve included it all completely UNEDITED so you can see the progression and the time it takes to see results) the pups are starting to respond to the voice command alone.
And all with no terrible, life altering TRAUMA. Who would have thought…
I will post other examples of negative reinforcement in action when I get a chance. Negative reinforcement is one of the most useful and effective tools in the dog trainers tool box.
Demonstrating the “Sheepdog Heel” – no commands, no lead AND no treats, deprivation or addiction!
With Campaspe King. Demonstrating the reliability of the training – notice not a single command is given, or any attention paid to King. He is happy and confident. Trained with a normal approach to training utilizing correction, punishment and praise. No treats, toys or other artificial rewards.
No reliance on the Big Three Necessities of Ineffective “Positive” Coercion – no deprivation, no addiction, and no extended stringent restrictions on freedom.
This high level obedience and training will never be achieved with TREATS – Tully working Campaspe Carbon 2024.
Carbon working a few sheep showing his high level of training and obedience. Calmly waits for the signal to go. Instantly responds to a whistle to lie down, a voice command to lie down, and the “here” command.
He has NEVER been trained with treats. Treat training simply doesn’t work in gaining obedience. When you train with treats, all you teach is “if you want a treat, sit”. If they don’t want a treat, or if the environmental rewards are bigger (and they usually are!) why would they sit?!
No treats. Just good, real world training.
No treats. Just good, real world training.
A bit of film of when I was breaking in my Australian Stock Horse “Madness” 20+ years ago. Teaching her to remain rock solid when tied up, accept the stock whip, me standing on her back, and so on.
Even though this isn’t dog training, the principles remain the same. Horses are a great example when talking about fear, because they are naturally fearful, nervous animals.
There is a strong element of punishment in training her to tie up here, with the fearful noises and objects I present her with. When she pulls back, the noose around her girth tightens and punishes her strongly. This would horrify the reward only crowd of course, but it clearly refutes so many of their arguments. As you can clearly see, she quickly gets over this initial very short-lived fear, and those objects no longer remain so fearful to her. As Mary Tyler Moore said: “You can’t be brave if you’ve only had wonderful things happen to you.”
Also, you can see that she trusts me implicitly. She is not frightened of me in the slightest.
Firstly, it refutes the reward only ideologue’s claim that “punishment doesn’t work”, or that it only “makes things worse”. In fact, the punishment works brilliantly – she was then a horse I could tie up anywhere, even just dropping the reins on a barbed wire fence, and know that she would not pull away, or get frightened by some random object blowing in the wind. She was reliable to tie up anywhere for the rest of her life.
Horses trained by trying to avoid any fear or punishment are nothing but a menace, to us and to themselves. They usually only end up injuring themselves when something out of our control scares them. Far better to teach them how to deal with fear and drastically reduce the risk of these things occurring later.
It also refutes the reward-only ideologues claim that punishment causes fear and anxiety. Short term, yes, some initial fear. Long term definitely not, as you can see. In fact it creates a very calm, relaxed, trusting horse. The environment is no longer such a scary place. She has learnt that she can brave out these scary objects, and soon learns not to fear them.
So a technique based largely on punishment (anything that the horse or a person dislikes or wants to avoid) that CURES fear. The same applies to dogs.
The reward-only crowd have no idea how this can even be possible. It is so far outside the realm of their limited experience and knowledge as to be incomprehensible to them.
Karen Pryor, Jean Donaldson & Ian Dunbar – “Positive” trainers using force and punishment techniques!
Karen Pryor Academy trainer, and then Jean Donaldson and Ian Dunbar using head collars, which are force-based tools using either negative reinforcement or punishment.
If positive reinforcement training is actually as good as the reward-only ideologues make out, then why do they need to use head collars?
For example, Pryor claims on her website: “Karen Pryor Academy’s approach is more effective [than punishment] in every meaningful dimension.” Yet here is one of her trainers using a head collar. Head collars tighten on the dog’s nose when pulled on – that is direct and simple punishment or negative reinforcement. They also use force to turn the dog’s head.
So they can hardly claim to be “force free” or “pure positive”! Obviously, their positive reinforcement methods don’t work, or they wouldn’t need these force-based punishment tools. They can hold the dog so easily because they cause so much discomfort that they work.
It is punishment that is doing the trick, not positive reinforcement. If their positive reinforcement methods worked, why do they all use force and punishment based training or management tools?
And without any of the awful “fallout” claimed by the likes of Murray Sidman or Susan Garett or any of the other reward-only extremists.
Just like our dogs, wolves work the same way. There is NOTHING natural about reward-only training. And, it doesn’t work.
Despite what Zak George or Ian Dunbar or Susan Garett or Karen Pryor or any of the other reward-only extremist ideologues say.
Pups annoying Mum. Wolves also work on negative reinforcement and punishment, not positive reinforcement.
And without any of the awful “fallout” claimed by the likes of Murray Sidman or Susan Garett or any of the other reward-only extremists.
Just like our dogs, wolves work the same way. There is NOTHING natural about reward-only training. And, it doesn’t work.
Despite what Zak George or Ian Dunbar or Susan Garett or Karen Pryor or any of the other reward-only extremist ideologues say.
How Dogs Work in the Real World – Negative Reinforcement and Punishment
A great example of two things – negative reinforcement and positive punishment in practice, and of the way dogs train their young in The Real World.
Campaspe Matilda here snarls when her pups get too close to her dinner (correction – technically “positive punishment”). If they get closer she escalates. When they back off she stops (negative reinforcement). At times she has also bitten the pups when they have ignored her (punishment). Exactly as wolves also do.
And without any of the awful “fallout” claimed by the likes of Murray Sidman or Susan Garett or any of the other reward-only extremists – the pups simply get trained.
Campaspe Carbon
A quick bit of footage of the well-trained sheepdog.